The Ezra Klein Show

When we find ourselves in a dark place, what if we didn't "lighten things up"? Sean Illing talks with philosopher Mariana Alessandri, whose new book Night Vision offers a new way of understanding our dark moods and experiences like depression, pain, and grief. Alessandri describes the deep influence of what she calls the "light metaphor" — the belief that light is good and darkness is bad — and the destructive emotional cycles it has produced. They discuss the influence of Stoic philosophy, Aristotelian ethics, and contemporary self-help — and explore what new paradigms for emotional intelligence might entail. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Mariana Alessandri (@mariana.alessandri), professor of philosophy, University of Texas Rio Grande Valley; author References:  Night Vision: Seeing Ourselves through Dark Moods by Mariana Alessandri (Princeton; 2023) Plato's "allegory of the cave" from the Republic, VI (514a–520a) The Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Vincent Peale (1952

Sean Illing talks with Carrie Jenkins about her new book Sad Love, and her call to rethink the shape and boundaries of romantic love. In this far-ranging discussion about the meaning of romantic love, Sean and Carrie discuss the connection between love and happiness, what we should expect (and not expect) from our romantic partners, and whether or not loving a person must entail that we love only that person. This was originally released as an episode of Vox Conversations in September 2022. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Carrie Jenkins (@carriejenkins), writer; professor of philosophy, University of British Columbia References:  Sad Love: Romance and the Search for Meaning by Carrie Jenkins (Polity; 2022) "A philosopher makes the case for polyamory" by Sean Illing (Vox; Feb. 16, 2018) What Love Is: And What It Could Be by Carrie Jenkins (Basic; 2017) Nausea by Jean-Paul Sartre (1949) Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle (see Book I, or Book X.6-8 for robust discussion of euda

Sean Illing talks with evolutionary anthropologist David Samson, whose new book Our Tribal Future delves into how tribalism has shaped the human story — and how we might be able to mitigate its negative effects in the future. Sean and David discuss how and when tribal organization came on the scene, what changed in human organization when it did, and how taking advantage of some positive aspects of tribal alignment could provide a path toward inoculating humanity against stubborn, regressive divisiveness. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: David Samson (@Primalprimate), professor of anthropology, University of Toronto; author References:  Our Tribal Future: How to Channel Our Foundational Human Instincts into a Force for Good by David R. Samson (St. Martin's; 2023) "Dunbar's number" by Robin Dunbar (New Scientist) The Nunn Lab, Duke University PDF: Surgeon General's Advisory on Our Epidemic of Loneliness and Isolation (May 3) "Human Response to Disaster" by Charles E. Fritz (

What do we do when an artist we love does something monstrous? Constance Grady, a culture writer at Vox, talks with Claire Dederer, the author of Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma. They discuss how to reckon with the facts and feelings of consuming art by someone who's done something bad, if it's possible to separate the art from the artist, and what responsibility — if any — comes with being a fan. Host: Constance Grady, (@constancegrady), culture and gender writer Guest: Claire Dederer, author of Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma  References:  Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma by Claire Dederer (Penguin Random House, 2023) “What Do We Do with the Art of Monstrous Men?” by Claire Dederer (The Paris Review, 2017) Dept. of Speculation by Jenny Ofill (Penguin Random House, 2014) Mad at Miles: A Blackwoman’s Guide to Truth by Pearl Cleage (Cleage Group Publication, 1990) Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Ar

Sean Illing talks with Clancy Martin, professor of philosophy at University of Missouri Kansas City, about his powerful new book How Not to Kill Yourself, which combines personal memoir and philosophical analysis to explore what it means to pursue self-destruction. They discuss wisdom from the Buddha and Albert Camus, Clancy's view that he is a suicide "addict," and concrete strategies for escaping the grip of suicidal thoughts. If you or someone you know is struggling with suicidal thoughts, the suicide and crisis lifeline can be reached by dialing 988. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Clancy Martin, professor of philosophy, University of Missouri-Kansas City; author References:  How Not to Kill Yourself: A Portrait of the Suicidal Mind by Clancy Martin (Pantheon; 2023) Facts about suicide (from the CDC, and the WHO James Hillman, Suicide and the Soul (1973) "Lessons from jumping off the Golden Gate bridge—survivor shares his story to help others" by Keisha Reynolds (MyCG;

What is the future of the racial justice movement in America? Sean Illing talks with Cedric Johnson, professor and author of After Black Lives Matter, about building a protest movement that meaningfully recognizes the underlying economic causes of the social inequities highlighted by the BLM movement. They discuss the demonstrations of Summer 2020, the prospects of building a multiracial class-conscious coalition, and viewing urban policing as a symptom of larger systemic problems. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Cedric Johnson, professor of Black Studies and Political Science, University of Illinois Chicago References:  After Black Lives Matter: Policing and Anti-Capitalist Struggle by Cedric G. Johnson (Verso; 2023) "Amid Protests, Majorities Across Racial and Ethnic Groups Express Support for Black Lives Matter Movement" (Pew Research Center; June 12, 2020) "Veto-proof majority of Minneapolis council members supports dismantling police department" by Brandt Williams (MPR;

Have clicks, likes, and shares driven media and democracy to the point of disrepair? Sean Illing is joined by Ben Smith, the editor-in-chief of Semafor and the author of "Traffic: Genius, Rivalry, and Delusion in the Billion-Dollar Race to Go Viral." Together, they discuss how newsrooms were transformed by social media and the pursuit of traffic, and what the future of the industry might look like. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Ben Smith (@semaforben), editor-in-chief of Semafor, author of Traffic: Genius, Rivalry, and Delusion in the Billion-Dollar Race to Go Viral References:  Traffic: Genius, Rivalry, and Delusion in the Billion-Dollar Race to Go Viral by Ben Smith (Penguin Random House, 2023) “How corporations got all your data” by The Gray Area (Vox, Mar. 2023) Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Support Th

Sean Illing speaks with history professor Robert Zaretsky about Simone Weil, a 20th-century French writer and activist who dedicated her life to a radical philosophy of love and attention. They discuss how she inspired her contemporaries — like Albert Camus and Simone de Beauvoir — and how her revolutionary ideas have remained relevant and important. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Robert Zaretsky, history professor, The University of Houston References:  The Subversive Simone Weil: A Life in Five Ideas by Robert Zaretsky (The University of Chicago Press, 2021) “The Philosophers: Resisting Despair” by Sean Illing (Vox, May 2022) The Ethics of Attention: Engaging the Real with Iris Murdoch and Simone Weil by Silvia Caprioglio Panizza (Routledge, 2022) Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Support The Gray Area by m

Can we live a good life in a world where animals are factory farmed? Guest host Dylan Matthews talks with the world-famous ethicist Peter Singer, author of Animal Liberation Now, the newly revised edition of his movement-founding 1975 work. They talk about the progress made by the animal rights movement — and the issues it still faces. Dylan also questions Singer on other aspects of his career as an outspoken popularizer of philosophy and ethics, including his positions on physician-assisted dying, abortion rights, and effective altruism. Host: Dylan Matthews (@dylanmatt), senior correspondent, Vox Guest: Peter Singer (@PeterSinger), Ira W. DeCamp Professor of Bioethics, Princeton University; author References:  Animal Liberation Now by Peter Singer (Harper Perennial; 2023), an updated version of Animal Liberation by Peter Singer (HarperCollins; 1975) Peter Singer Live on Stage: tickets and more info "Animal Liberation" by Peter Singer (New York Review of Books, Apr. 5, 1973) Unsanctifying Human Life:

Are we responsible for keeping poor people poor? Sean Illing is joined by Matt Desmond, a sociology professor at Princeton University and the author of the books Evicted: Poverty and Profit in the American City and Poverty, by America. They discuss why most Americans are unaware of their privilege and how their choices perpetuate poverty. They also discuss the power and hope that can come from bringing awareness to these choices and why abolishing poverty is possible. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Matthew Desmond, Sociology professor, and author of Poverty, by America References:  Poverty, by America by Matthew Desmond (Penguin Random House, 2023) Evicted: Poverty And Profit In The American City by Matthew Desmond (Penguin Random House, 2017) “Why even brilliant scholars misunderstand poverty in America” by Dylan Matthews (Vox, Mar. 2023)  Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next

The pandemic caused many to rethink our relationship to work. But how did that relationship develop in the first place? Sean Illing talks with George Blaustein, professor of American Studies, about the legacy and influence of Max Weber, the German theorist whose best-known work is The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism (1905) — which, Blaustein says, is often misunderstood. In the summer of 2020, George wrote an essay interpreting Weber's ideas on the psychology of work, the origins of capitalism, and the isolation of modernity — just as it looked like everything might change. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: George Blaustein (@blauwsteen), senior lecturer of American Studies and History, University of Amsterdam; editor, European Review of Books References:  "Searching for Consolation in Max Weber's Work Ethic" by George Blaustein (The New Republic; July 2, 2020) The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism by Max Weber (1905; tr. by Talcott Parsons, 1930) The V

What do we know — and what don't we know — about how the human mind works? Sean Illing talks with Paul Bloom, professor of psychology and author of the new book Psych: The Story of the Human Mind. In this conversation, Sean and Paul talk about some of the most interesting and confounding questions in psychology. They discuss the problematic theories of some giants in the history of the field, the way that AI might change psychology, and whether or not the discipline is any closer to understanding the nature of mental illness. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Paul Bloom (@paulbloomatyale), Professor of Psychology, University of Toronto; Professor Emeritus, Yale University; author References:  Psych: The Story of the Human Mind by Paul Bloom (Ecco; 2023) The Replication Crisis (Psychology Today) Freud's "primal scene" is taken from his "From the History of an Infantile Neurosis" (a.k.a. the "Wolf Man" case) (1918) The Mating Mind: How Sexual Choice Shaped the Evolution of Human

There are many debates within the American left, but the fundamental dispute is over the viability of the current system. Part of the left wants a revolution, and part wants reform. Sean Illing is joined by Eric Levitz, a features writer for New York magazine’s Intelligencer. They discuss the revolution versus reform divide and what can be done to navigate the US’s capitalist and constitutional systems in order to advance the left’s agenda. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Eric Levitz (@EricLevitz), features writer, New York Magazine’s Intelligencer  References:  “Blaming ‘Capitalism’ Is Not an Alternative to Solving Problems” by Eric Levitz (April, 2023 New York Magazine) Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: 

Will AI change what it means to be human? Sean Illing talks with essayist Meghan O'Gieblyn, author of God, Human, Animal, Machine, a book about how the way we understand human nature has been interwoven with how we understand our own technology. They discuss the power of metaphor in describing fundamental aspects of being human, the "transhumanism" movement, and what we're after when we seek companionship in a chatbot. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Meghan O'Gieblyn, essayist; author References:  God, Human, Animal, Machine: Technology, Metaphor, and the Search for Meaning by Meghan O'Gieblyn (Anchor; 2021) The Age of Spiritual Machines by Ray Kurzweil (Penguin; 1999) The Sociology of Religion by Max Weber (1920) "Facing Up to the Problem of Consciousness" by David Chalmers (1995) The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes (1976) "Routine Maintenance" by Meghan O'Gieblyn (Harper's; Jan. 2022) "Babel" by Meghan O'Gieblyn (n+1;

Why don't more philosophers take psychedelic drugs seriously as a means of examining reality? Sean Illing talks with Justin Smith-Ruiu, professor of philosophy, whose recent essay "This Is a Philosopher on Drugs" tells of how experimenting with psilocybin and other substances led to a radical reevaluation of nearly everything in his life — including his views on the nature of reality. They discuss the roots of an alternative worldview in the thought of German polymath G.W. Leibniz, what it means to say — as Socrates does — that philosophy is "preparation for death," and why psychedelics aren't more often explored in contemporary philosophy. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Justin Smith-Ruiu, philosopher; author References:  "This Is a Philosopher on Drugs" by Justin E.H. Smith (Wired; Mar. 7) Justin Smith-Ruiu's Hinternet (Substack) The Internet Is Not What You Think It Is by Justin E.H. Smith (Princeton; 2022) "The brutal mirror: What the psychedelic drug ayahuasca showed m

What happens when you apply the Socratic method to personal relationships? Philosopher Agnes Callard joins Sean Illing to discuss how Socrates inspires her public philosophy project —including the decision to share the details of her love life and how these pursuits have created a more thoughtful and meaningful life. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Agnes Callard, (@agnescallard), philosopher, University of Chicago References:  “Agnes Callard’s Marriage Of The Minds” by Rachel Aviv (Mar. 2023, The New Yorker) ”Everyone Desires the Good: Socrates' Protreptic Theory of Desire” by Agnes Callard (June 2017, The Review of Metaphysics) “A Philosopher Gets Fed Up With Profundity” by Agnes Callard (Mar. 2023, The Atlantic) Plato, Gorgias Plato, Symposium Plato, Meno Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Support The Gray

Could our brains make us less lonely? Sean Illing talks with psychiatrist and author Julie Holland, whose new book Good Chemistry takes on the crisis of disconnectedness we face today. They discuss the brain chemistry of attachment and human connection, how psychedelics can be used both in therapeutic contexts and to help us feel more connected to others, and the toll that this crisis of isolation can take on us — emotionally, physically, and spiritually. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Julie Holland, MD (@BellevueDoc), psychiatrist; medical advisor to MAPS; author References:  Good Chemistry: The Science of Connection from Soul to Psychedelics by Julie Holland (Harper; 2022) "Work and the Loneliness Epidemic" by Vivek Murthy (Harvard Business Review; Sept. 26, 2017) "Loneliness in U.S. Subsides From Pandemic High" by Dan Witters (Gallup; Apr. 4) The Red Book by Carl Jung (written from 1914–1930; pub. Norton; 2009) "People would rather be electrically shocked than left al

Sean Illing is joined by reporter Jeff Sharlet, whose new book The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War takes readers on the ground across America right now, as all kinds of people seem to be preparing for a violent fight with other Americans. They discuss the killing of Ashli Babbitt on Jan. 6 and how the story of her death has evolved, the religious nature of some "fringe" political beliefs, and what life is like living in what Jeff calls "the Trumpocene." Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Jeff Sharlet (@JeffSharlet), reporter; author  References:  The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War by Jeff Sharlet (W.W. Norton; 2023) The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power by Jeff Sharlet (Harper Collins; 2008) The Anatomy of Fascism by Robert O. Paxton (Vintage; 2005) A Brief History of Fascist Lies by Federico Finchelstein (University of California; 2020) "Ashli Babbitt a martyr? Her past tells a more complex story" by Michael Biesecker (AP; Jan.

Most of us don’t know how to truly listen, and it’s causing all sorts of problems. Sean Illing is joined by journalist Kate Murphy, the author of You’re Not Listening: What You’re Missing and Why It Matters, to discuss what it means to be a good listener, the problems that are caused when we don’t listen to each other, and the positive impacts on our health when we do. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Kate Murphy, author,You’re Not Listening: What You’re Missing and Why It Matters References:  You’re Not Listening: What You’re Missing and Why It Matters by Kate Murphy (Celadon Books, 2020) “This is your brain on communication” by Uri Hasson (TED, 2016) Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by:  Engineer: Patri

Sean Illing is joined by Anand Giridharadas, author of The Persuaders: At the Front Lines of the Fight for Hearts, Minds, and Democracy. Together they discuss how polarity is a threat to our democracy, the organizing efforts that are effective, and why there's hope for a less divisive future in America. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Anand Giridharadas (@AnandWrites), author  References:  The Persuaders: At the Front Lines of the Fight for Hearts, Minds, and Democracy by Anand Giridharadas (Penguin Random House, 202) Winners Take All: The Elite Charade of Changing the World (Penguin Random House, 2022) Amanda Marcotte “Meet the woman behind Libs of TikTok, secretly fueling the right’s outrage machine” by Taylor Lorenz (The Washington Post, Apr. 19th, 2022)  Anat Shenker-Osorio People’s Action Institute  Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscrib