Listen, Learn & Love Hosted By Richard Ostler

My friend Lindsey Sais joins us to share her powerful story. Lindsey (early 40s, married for 5 years to her wife Connie, lives in Raleigh NC) joins us to bravely share her story of being divorced at age 23, coming out as gay that same year, working through addiction, being an ex-felon, and suicidal ideation. Lindsey talks about how addiction is not a moral failure—but rather a human reality from taking drugs/alcohol—which often starts to escape pain. Lindsey shares the process she took (along with God’s help) to become sober on Feb 13, 2013—it is a moving story that gives hope to others. Lindsey talks about how Christ’s love/atonement is not earned—it is just there for all of us—and how she accesses that love in her darkest days to feel hope and healing. Lindsey shared many lessons, perspectives, and insights for those in dark places to find a way forward—and the positive role of her parents on this long road. Lindsey talks about finding her soulmate in her wife Connie and how that relationship

My friends Josh and Jen Rollins (married for 26 years, parents of 5, live in Riverton Utah, active LDS) share their story of their middle child Aiden coming out as gay, then their oldest children Jace coming out as gay and later transgender, and then their second-oldest Chelsea coming out as bisexual. Josh (who was serving as Bishop during much of this time) and Jen share how their family went from fitting the perfect Latter-day Saint mold to where they are today—a beautiful family united in their love for each other and creating space for the lived experiences of each family member. Jen and Josh are honest that their journey has been difficult as their LGBTQ kids didn’t find it possible to find a place in the Church—and how they needed to reconstruct their hopes/dreams. Jen and Josh talk about their constant reliance of prayer and direction from Heavenly Parents. Jen and Josh talk about how having LGBTQ kids isn’t a “trial”—because their kids are great human beings doing much good in the world—t

My friend Lily Prisbrey—who recently returned from both a proselyting mission (Philippines) and a service mission (Utah). She joins us to give her farewell talk. In this talk, Lily bravely talks about: Her journey with scrupulosity and faith-related guilt. Finding a loving, accepting, and NOT “ever-disappointed” God. Finding God in the Filipino people. Finding God through a Mission President who listened to doubts without judging and supported Lily’s decision to end her proselyting mission early. Finding God through failure. Inviting others to serve missions who don’t fit the mold. Lily concludes her talk with her powerful testimony of a loving God with 1 John 4: “God is love” and these words: “I am not a black and white, fit the mold, perfect kind of person. But I served as a missionary—and I hope that through what I’ve shared today—you all can see that if I can be a missionary, you can too”. We conclude with a discussion about her talk. Lily brings powerful insights into how to help everyone

My friend Zak Hazlett (Masters Degree in Marriage and Family Therapy from BYU) joins us from his home in Moab, Utah to talk about his life mission to bring more kindness, love, understanding into our community. Zak (who grew up running rivers in Southern Utah) talks about merging this love of the outdoors and his desire to help others into a career as a therapist and relationship coach—which is captured in his fast-growing Instagram Account called @the_outdoor_therapist. In the podcast, Zak talks about how to better love and accept ourselves, love others, learn to forgive ourselves/others, find hope/healing and be a better people. Zak also talks about working as a student therapist in the BYU Comprehensive Clinic—where he had many visits with queer BYU students. He talks about what he learned, how to better listen, how we don’t always have the answer, how his heart changed, and how he loves this group of people. I was deeply moved listening to Zak—his great heart—his work—and his ability to communic

Our friend Ben Schilaty (who recently turned 40 and is co-host with Charlie Bird on the Questions from the Closet podcast) joins us to talk about his decision to date men, his commitment to our Church and the gospel of Jesus Christ, his decision to leave BYU (on good terms) and start his career as a therapist (Ben has a Masters in this field) focusing of helping LGBTQ folks and their families in Utah. Ben also talks about the new Gatherings groups using the Book of Mormon/Come Follow Me to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints. Ben concluded with his latest insights from the Book of Mormon. As usual, I was deeply moved listening to Ben’s latest thoughts on his personal life, his career, what we can do to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and his scriptural insights to create Zion. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this podcast. Thank you Ben for all your efforts to create more understanding, unity and hope. Honored to have you on the podcast and count you as a friend! Links: Ben’s Nov 2023 Blog:

My British friends Sam and Jen Norton (married parents of four, living near London England) join us to talk about their work to help younger Latter-day Saints feel welcome, needed and that they belong—allowing them to bring their individuality to help build Zion and access the Atonement of Jesus Christ to bring healing to themselves and others. Sam and Jen take the gospel of Jesus Christ and —in a unique way—turn that into action with the London FSY events over the past two years—which included 500+ youth from over 95 nationalities. With the help of their dedicated team of forward-thinking youth leaders, they talk about these events that created a safe and welcoming place for the youth to feel welcome and needed so they could come unto Christ in their way and access His healing. Sam and Jen then talk about Sam’s new book (with Jen writing the foreword and conclusion) where Sam talks about how to put gospel principles into action so that more of our younger members feel welcome and that their contribut

My friend Kurt Francom (founder and executive director of Leading Saints) joins us to talk about his new book called “Is God Disappointed In Me? Removing Shame From A Gospel of Grace”. In the podcast, Kurt (who has done 100s and 100s of interviews with local Latter-day Saint leaders) talks about why he wrote the book, the need for this type of book, and what he hopes it helps accomplish. I agree with Kurt that shame has no place in the Gospel and grateful for Kurt putting his years of learning into a book to help our Latter-day Saint community. I encourage everyone to read and share Kurt’s book. Thank you for being on the podcast Kurt and all your needed work to help create Zion. Links: Kurt’s Book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CT67RS86 Leading Saints: https://leadingsaints.org/

My friend Camille McConnell (married LDS mother of 5 who was on episode 292) joins us to talk about her new book called “Let the Angels Carry You: Coping & Connecting When Loved Ones Pass On." In the podcast, Camille talks about how to connect with our loved ones who have died and have them be part of our lives. She also talks about how to find hope, peace, and purpose following the tragic and sudden loss of a child or someone close to us. Camille also talks about what we can do to better support those dealing with grief—and how simple platitudes like “he is in a better place” are not helpful. I learned so much from Camille’s insights. If you are dealing with grief or want better insights/tools to help others, please check out this podcast and buy Camille’s book. Thank you for being on the podcast Camille (and I felt Wesley with us) and all your great/needed work in our community. Links: Camille’s book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Let-Angels-Carry-You-Connecting/dp/B0CQK4PYCS Camille’s ea

*** Trigger Warning: This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** In this solo episode, I talk about the focus of the podcast going forward, the Allegory of the Olive Tree/Vineyard (Jacob 5) and how it applies to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints, and a personal update. Thank you for all your support of our podcast. Love, Richard Links: Richard Ostler e-mail: richard@ostlergroup.com Bio: papaostler.com Facebook Support Group for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Spencer King (Sapporo Japan RM): https://www.spencerking.link/

My friend Jana Spangler (Certified Integral Profession Coach at Symmetry Solutions, alumnus of The Living School, Latter-day Saint) joins us to talk about stages of faith using Brian McLaren’s 4-stage model of simplicity, complexity, perplexity, and harmony. This is a powerful model to understand the various roads Latter-day Saints are walking. Jana—a sought-after speaker, presenter, retreat leader and podcast guest on this subject—has many years of experience in this space from both her personal journey, professional work, and academic experience to give Latter-day Saints tools and vocabulary to understand a faith transition within themselves and provide better support to others. Jana is someone I consider an expert in this field for Latter-day Saints. Her work helped me in my own journey during my faith transition as I desired to stay a committed Latter-day Saint and needed more tools, principals, and perspective. Thank you, Jana, for your wonderful/needed work in our community to bring us togethe

**Trigger Warning: This episode talks about electroshock therapy and suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat 988** My friend Adam joins us to share his story of coming out in the early 90’s in a church where we generally believed that “something had gone wrong” with someone having same-sex attraction that could be identified and then ‘fixed” through conversation therapy and in the case of Adam (and others) electroshock therapy—and increased spiritual practices (prayer, fasting, church attendance). Adam shares his heart wrenching story of wanting to be a “good Mormon boy” and doing anything asked of him over a 5-year period to be straight and root out the “deviant nature” of his same-sex attraction. Adam takes us back to the 70s/80s/90s to what was being written in BYU publications and said by church leaders about homosexuals. Adam talks about how we "can’t heal without addressing the past”. Adam talks about his plans for suicide, delaying those plans for one day, and then leaving the

My friend Ben and Rebecca Lesue (parents of nine, recently moved from SW Missouri to Monument Valley Utah, non-binary/queer child) join us to share their story. They start with their journey to understand LGBTQ Latter-day Saints following Rebecca’s brother coming out as gay. They then share the story of their own child coming out as queer/non-binary then stepping away from the Church. Rebecca talks about learning “her job is not to cause them to turn out a certain way” but to “love and nurture”. Ben and Rebecca then talk about the 5th Sunday lesson they gave in their Ward about faith transitions. They talk about models of faith including simplicity, complexity, and harmony. Ben talks about how he learned his own “faith crisis” is normal, healthy, and positive. He talks about the work of Jared Halverson (LDS Institute Teacher) to normalize faith transitions. Ben and Rebecca talk about how fear and doubt are not opposites of faith—but part of developing a stronger and more sustainable faith. B

My friend Clare Dalton (who shared her story as a gay Latter-day Saint on episode 583) joins us to announce the exciting news of a companion curriculum from Gather and Lift+Love to help LGBTQ+ individuals and families see themselves in the 2024 Come, Follow Me study of the Book of Mormon. Clare talks about the accessibility of this program (which includes a downloadable monthly .pdf) designed to add additional content to Come, Follow Me that helps teachers, local leaders, LGBTQ+ families, allies, and people holding or wanting to start LGBTQ+ support groups, bring to life principles and insights from the Book of Mormon to support LGBTQ+ Latter-day Saints. Clare shares her goal: “I want everyone to see themselves in the scriptures” and the importance of representation. If you are looking for Christ-centered/Church-supportive content to better support LGBTQ+ Latter-day Saints as part of our study of the Book of Mormon in 2024, please check out this podcast and download/share these .pdf guides. Thank yo

My friends Liz Giles (from Yakima Washington, RM, BYU Grad) and Ryan Giles (from South Jordan Utah, RM, BYU Grad) join us to share their story. Liz and Ryan start with becoming friends at BYU, accidentally falling in love, and then* figuring out their sexualities. Ryan states, “You don’t fall in love with a girl unless you are wired for girls.” Liz talks about her decision to serve a mission and coming to terms with her sexuality during that time. Both Ryan and Liz served faithful and honorable missions. After Liz returned from her mission, Ryan and Liz share how they navigated their close friendship while at BYU, decide to begin dating a year later, and get married in 2021. They talk about the options they explored as queer Latter-day Saints and the personal revelation they received to walk a fourth option—being in a same-sex marriage and continuing to participate in Church (as much as they are allowed to). They talk about the love and support they are receiving from many church members. They also talk

My friend Andrew Davis (age 31, self-employed, active LDS, same-sex attraction, podcast host) joins us to bravely share his story. Andrew (who is a son of my awesome mission companion Jamison Davis) courageously talks about his growing up years navigating his attraction to men, porn use, anxiety, and fear—and his prayers for this all to be taken from him. Andrew talks about how his relationship with God and the Savior helped him find peace and hope in his life—including that his SSA attraction/thoughts are not a sin—but acting on them is. Andrew talks about his plans to live a covenant keeping life, how his primary label is a child of God, and his plans to marry a woman in the Temple. Andrews talks about the need for more stories of Latter-day Saints with SSA who have conservative views and are living lives within Church teachings—and the need to better support these members. This led to Andrew starting a podcast called “Sons of God: Conservative Views on Faith & Same-Sex Attraction.” I was de

** Trigger Warning: This podcast discusses suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat 988 ** My brave friend Jessy Markowitz joins us from Las Vegas to share her story. Jessy starts with the realities of her life resulting in immense pain and, at times, loss of hope. Jessy talks about her father’s death at age 4, being sexually assaulted, and then her brother Dennis’ death from suicide in Feb 2017. Jessy was very close to Dennis and talks about the pain of his death. Jessy, now a married mother, talks about feeling so much darkness and lack of hope in her life following Dennis’ death. Jessy talks about the deeply spiritual experiences that led her to Jesus and to membership in the Church (and later her husband). Jessy talks about the dramatic contrast between her life without Jesus and her life now with Jesus, the Church, and the healing power of His atonement. It is a remarkable story that gives hope to everyone. Jessy talks about her love of the temple (including her husband Mitch

My friend Dallin Patton (from Tucson, Kansas Wichita Mission RM, Senior in Social Work at Utah State University) joins us to bravely share his story. Dallin discusses the years before his mission (navigating his identity, some conversion therapy, and mostly putting it in a “box at the back of his head”). These were difficult years for Dallin. Dallin talks about his decision to serve a mission (spent most of his time in Wichita, Kansas) and often being filled with anxiety that someone would discover his sexual orientation. Dallin talks about how his mission was both incredibly hard and amazing—and how the anxiety and depression led to him coming home after about 17 months of service. Dallin then talks about attending Utah State and dating women as that was his “only hope for a normal life” and “being gay was like a death sentence”. After not being able to make it work with a woman, Dallin talks about how he moved out of the dark space to more light and hope including personal revelation stating “Dallin

My friends Margaret Olsen Hemming and Rev. Dr. Fatimah Salleh (who was on Episode 710) join us to talk about their latest (and final) volume of “The Book of Mormon for the Least of These, Volume 3: Helaman-Moroni.” Margaret and Fatimah share some of the behind-the-scenes story of working together to write these books, their personal journeys with the Book of Mormon, and what they hope to accomplish with their books. Their work helps us read the book from a social justice perspective that speaks to issues of racism, sexism, immigrations, refugees, and socioeconomic inequality—and then consider what we can do in our circle of influence to be better disciples of Christ. I was so moved listening to these inspiring scholars, authors, theologians, and disciples. I will be using their books as I study the Book of Mormon in 2024 and look for things I need to change in my world view to better love, see, and support those walking a harder road. Thank you, Margaret and Fatimah, for your wonderful work. Honor

My friend Sofia Jones (from Bakersfield California, joined Church in March 2021, mid-20s) join us to share her story. Sofia (who grew up Christian) talks about changing her initial assumptions about Latter-day Saints and being willing to meet with the missionaries, read the Book of Mormon, and be baptized. It is a beautiful conversation story with insights on the added gospel understanding unique to our restored Church—which brings peace, hope and perspective. Sofia then talks about being willing to consider her sexual orientation and how her YSA Ward is a safe place to be LGBTQ—including her ward member Adam Garrett (episode 508) who shared helpful insights. Sofia talks about how she never considered that being LGBTQ would be OK to God and compatible with being a Christian. She talks about her journey to find acceptance within herself—and the role of personal revelation—of being asexual and a lesbian. Sofia talks about how “God still loves you and God is still for you”. This is a wonderful podcast f

My friend Dr. Heidi Hastings joins us to talk about her research around betrayal trauma for women in marriages (largely around a husband’s pornography use) She is married, LDS, mother of 4, lives in Frisco, Texas, sex and marriage researcher/educator, teaches Family Stress and Coping for BYU-Idaho online, Master’s and Ph.D. degrees in Human Development and Family Studies from Texas Woman’s University. Dr. Hastings vulnerably shares some of her own story, as well as her research, which includes a model she developed as part of her Ph.D. dissertation called “Stages of Betray of Self-Development.” The five stages (innocence, crisis, aftermath, healing, and transformation) are so helpful to those walking the road of betrayal trauma and those working to help them. Dr. Hastings concludes with important takeaways, including the role of God, how Jesus is “relief,” women need women to heal, the need for couples to communicate about pornography and sexuality, and the unhelpful role of shame in keeping pornogra